NOTE: This episode was recorded before the horrific events we see unfold in Ukraine right now, with the ongoing Russian invasion, and all the fear, suffering and loss of lives that war inevitably brings. I feel helpless, sad, scared and angry. I want to make it clear that I stand with the brave people of Ukraine – and I also stand with the thousands of Russians who take to the streets, putting themselves in danger to protest the war and oppose Putin’s regime. I’d like to invite you to join me in one minute of silence. During that minute, take the time to visit – it’s a list of links (curated by Ukrainians) that tells you real ways you can help Ukraine as a foreigner. If you can, please consider donating to one of the organisations listed. If you do donate, send me an email to let me know,, and as a thank you I’ll gift you my Brand it! Strategy Workbook.

Let’s move on to the episode:

Today I’m joined by Maya Šarić – sales copywriter, messaging strategist and owner of SharpshineCopy. She helps coaches and soulful service-based business owners win more freedom in business and life through content that connects people and stands out.

With a background in philology, translating, and business, she’s been uncovering the wow factor in business owners’ offers and personal brands for more than 4 years, taking all the other puzzle pieces like insights and data from their ideal clients, transmuting them into powerful messages on websites, sales pages and emails.

In this episode, Maya and I will talk more about what it really means to stand out from the crowd, if you can actually attract and convert clients with your content – or if it’s a myth and you have to give in and chase them down in DMs and bots – even if that’s not your “style.”

TL;DR – Here’s how to connect with Maya:

WebsiteInstagram / Facebook
Workshop: Shortcut to a stunning website

Disclaimer: The following transcript has been auto-generated and then cleaned up by my wonderful VA – and while the general flow of the conversation is there, it’s probably not 100% accurate.

P: Maya, welcome to the Brand it podcast. 

M: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here. You know, I was thrilled when we agreed for me to be your guests, and especially when I saw how many wonderful entrepreneurs were already on your podcast. Some of them I follow and admire, and yeah, it’s really a pleasure.

P: No, it’s my pleasure. It’s such a pleasure to have you on as a guest for several reasons, really, and one being that we’ve known each other now for a while, and it’s always nice to have friends from the online business sphere on to share their expertise.

And then also number two: you’re a copywriter and you know, the whole sort of brand copy, tone of voice. All of those things are so integral to creating a recognisable brand, but they’re so often overlooked in favour of the brand visuals, and the logo, and colours in the fonts, and all of that. But when you think of it, you know, how you talk is as important for how you come across as how you dress right. So I’m kind of thinking it’s the same for your brand. 

M: Of course.

Yes, you know, we are recording this on the 14th of February, and so I may use the reference to the Valentine’s Day and say that copywriting and visual brand are actually in a very close relationship and that closer that relationship is, the better the brand is. The better the message is more connected and more impactful.

P: Yeah, absolutely. We’re specifically talking about sales copy today, and for me, I have to be honest, that’s the hardest form of copy to write for me. I guess that probably rings true for a lot of other heart-centred, purpose driven, business owners too, because that balance of wanting to strut your stuff and get your sales and at the same time not wanting to come across as a pushy, sleazy, douchebag or stabbing at people’s pain points. I mean, that’s a tricky balance to get right. So I’m really excited about this conversation. 

M: I am, too.

P: Before we dive in, what can our listeners expect from this episode? What are they going to take away and learn from today? 

M: First of all, I’d like to tackle what you just mentioned and how I see sales copy and why I don’t think it’s sleazy or slimy to talk about your offers. Better yet, how to not sound sleazy and slimy when you talk about them. And a big part of that, I think, is the ability for your audience to understand that a big part of it is being able to write in a way that connects with, really connects on a deeper level with their ideal clients and what that means, and how to do that, and also why it’s so important to communicate empathy in their sales copy, along with everything else that makes it. So that’s part of what I’d like to, I mean, that’s mostly what I’d like to talk about. 

P: I love it. I love that you have the empathy there to sort of guide the conversation as well is that that is, I think my number one biggest struggle or biggest fear when I write my sales copy, is that I will not come across as someone who has empathy. I want to show that I understand what my potential clients might be struggling with so that I can help them but I find sometimes that there’s a fine line between empathy and sympathy. Sympathy can often be like a bit too, like making it sound like I feel sorry for them, and that they’re doing something wrong rather than understanding how they.. So to me, there’s a fine line between empathy and sympathy. What are your thoughts on that? Sorry, I put you on the spot. 

M: Yeah, yeah, I haven’t I haven’t thought about it because, I don’t know, empathy comes sort of naturally to me. When we are talking about pain points and the way you explain their pain points. And it’s really important that we do because explaining their pain points has to do a lot with that connection part that I mentioned. Of course, it’s important not to go over the line. So you show them that you know what their “wounds” are. I’m using air quotation marks here, but not poke in in those wounds. That’s not good. Like, that’s not good copyrighting. That’s not good conversation, right?

After that, sympathy is not just going over them and say, ‘All right, I know your struggle with this, but let me show you my solution like, let me show you how I’ll just fix that for you’ and go over that part. Go over those wounds and those problems they face without addressing that you empathise with them. I write mostly for coaches, and soulful, service-based business owners, and a lot of them have already been in those situations and that’s why they know those pain points so well. So one of the sentences that really works well is like ‘I get it,’ and then a short paragraph of why you get it, how you get it. Just share that.

Just share that part of your story that explains that they’re okay and yeah, I actually like to share. I don’t know if your listeners ever watched Madmen, the series Madmen. It’s about copyrighting agency, and the main character is Don Draper. He is the main copywriter in that agency. I don’t want to go into details of the series, but he I mean, the writers who wrote lines for his character said something that really made a huge impression on me and how I address copyrighting that I’d like to share.

P: Yeah, go for it.

M: He said “advertising is based on one thing, happiness, and you know what happiness is? Happiness is the smell of a new car. It’s freedom from fear, and the most important part, it’s a billboard on the side of the road that screams with reassurance that whatever you’re doing, it’s okay. You’re okay.”

So the purpose is not to sell. I mean, he says it in that frame, like if you want to sell, you have to tell people that they’re OK, but I don’t think of it that way. I think it’s a normal conversation. You want people when you talk to them and when you write to them, you want them to feel that they’re OK because that’s the way you want you to feel when someone speaks to you and when someone is trying to sell something to you. You’re OK. What you’re doing it is okay.

P: I love that. I love that you brought in that quote as well. I love that series I’ve seen it all and it was one of those series that when it ended, I was a bit sad because I missed it. I wanted to still watch it, and it was my fault because I’d been binge watching it and I should have just spaced it out. 

M: Me, too. Me, too. 

P: That’s a bit of a digression there, but a good one, I think. So when you work with your clients, what sort of issues do you find that come up the most for them when they are writing their copy? 

M: A lot of my clients aren’t aware of the issues that they have, or to be honest, like people, my ideal clients whose content I lurk on or check, I find this recurring topic and that topic is ‘Is that a problem?’ It all sounds pretty much the same, and it all sounds a little bit dull. The same sentences, the same phrases, the same explanations of people’s problems and the same framed solutions, like all the sales pages- not all of course, there are exceptions. I don’t want to generalise, but like a lot of them are pretty much similar. 

The problem with that is usually when readers go on sales pages or websites, they don’t go to read it like a novel. They’ll scan it and if they don’t find anything to snap them from whatever they’re they’re doing that is not scanning at the moment, then they’re not going to  really pay attention to what’s written there. 

I think that the problem that I see a lot is that similarity and that contents sort of blend and the symptoms that my client’s experience is that their sales content doesn’t convert. Sometimes they like wonder ‘why do I need it for, like, do I even need it? Can I just tell from social media? Do I have go and chase people in messages, even though I really don’t want to, and I don’t like it. But my website, like, why do I have it? It doesn’t convert.’

They don’t even know and realise what could be wrong. 

P: Yeah, why do you think that is, though, that there’s so many of us go into that trap of sounding the same? Do you think it’s just how online business is because it’s so easy to go and see what other people are doing? It’s easy to buy a template because some expert told you that ‘this is the recipe for a sales page. Here you go. Here, here are your sections.’ I mean, I see that a lot, and I guess it can be a good tool for a starting point, you know, like the kind of sections and stuff. But the way that you’re talking about, you know, everyone’s sounding the same it sounds like there may be, are taking these templates a little bit too literally and like just copying them without adding any of themselves into it.

M: Yes, yes, I think I think you’re onto something. Yes, templates are great. They’re great as a starting point, and more importantly, they’re great for structure because structure is also very important because there is a way readers need, there is an order in which they need to read information based on what they expect based on principles of storytelling. You can’t start from the end, right? You need to see the plot first, and that’s why structure is so important. Other than that, one of the ways that we stand out, the experts stand out, and coaches and other service-based business owners, is with their personality. It’s important to communicate that personality.

If you take someone else’s template and use their words than their words, their personality and there isn’t really you in it. So that’s the problem. Also there’s a lot of words, there’s a lot of people often say that they don’t want long sales pages. They don’t want it to be long. They want everything to be short and concise and succinct, which is okay, concise and succinct is great. But if you want to tell a story and pursue someone, and just communicate your message, that takes words.

I don’t think that’s something to be afraid of, you know, using words to connect, basically.

P: Yeah, I think the problem I have mostly with those never-ending sales pages is when they’re very much like a scroll fest. I don’t mind so much if there’s a story and I get dragged in and I enjoy reading it then. But when it’s just fluff and it’s just repeating themselves, and it’s a long page for the sake of having a long page, and I have to wait until the end to find the price, even that kind of puts me off.

But like you said, if there’s a story there and the stories engaging, then I actually enjoy reading them, then I want to read on. So I think that’s a fine art there to kind of get that right. 

M: Sales pitches are very different when, when depending on perspective, like if your perspective is you just want to check it out that you’re not really interested, you’re not going to like it. It’s very long. But if you’re actually interested, and you want to learn more about the offer you’re going to take more time and read what they have to say. So I think that when people say ‘Oh, it’s so long!’ I mean, you’re right like there are long sales pages are long sales pages, of course, but when they’re well written and one person is interested, they don’t mind how long it is. They want to know everything that they can take from it in order to make decisions, and in order to rationalise their decision because  first they make a decision, but then they have to justify with themselves. They make it based on the story and the emotions, and the reason why they really want it. But then they rationalise it with reading about what’s included, how much it costs, how much time it will take, etcetera, and it all needs to be in there. 

P: Good point. So i if someone is kind of stuck in this sea of sameness and the sales copy is non-distinct and it’s pretty much could be anyone’s, what kind of problems could that lead to? What kind of issues do you see come up often for people who maybe if they don’t stand out as themselves, like, what can that lead to? 

M: Well, they can attract the wrong client. They can attract people who are not really interested in their offer, people who will lowball their prices, people who will ask them for discounts, people who will take on their programmes but then complain and not really implement. So all of that is better solved through sales content that is really carefully written. 

The other problem is they may have to feel that they have to chase their ideal clients through Facebook groups, and through messages. I mean, there are people who are really talented, and it’s easy for them, and that’s fine. But if you are like me, for example, I’m very resistant to (messages). I have tried in all honesty a couple of times to go in DMs and send them and ‘Hi, how are you?’ but it just doesn’t work for me, I don’t feel good doing it. 

So those people may believe that attracting people through your content is a myth and converting to sales pages is not really possible because no one reads sales pages but that’s just not true. That’s like the symptom that you’re not standing out in your in your sales content, content in general, but specifically in sales content and yes, I just want to add something just to be clear. Standing out is not in content in general, but in sales content in particular, is not about, for example, adding cuss words because that started to be kind of popular at one point. Of course, if someone uses them naturally and it’s part of their language, there is nothing wrong with it either. But just for the sake of standing out, it’s not good, because sooner or later people are going to find out that that’s not really you. Also what’s not standing out-   It’s not like this. This is honestly a mistake I made. I thought at the early age is when I first started out I was weirdly attracted to slang, like to modern slang words, and I found that I Googled like a lot of slang terms that I could use for regular language, and that’s also not how you stand out. 

What else? Frankensteining? I call it Frankensteining in your messages, like going to your competitors, websites or sales pages and stealing, or using it as inspiration. I mean, that’s okay until one point. But after after a point, you want to use your own words from your own experience, and explain your message from how you perceive it, and how you experienced it through conversations with your ideal clients and with your clients. Not somebody else’s experience, not somebody else’s ideal clients, and clients. So I just wanted to show what’s not to stand out, what it doesn’t mean.

P: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Actually, I talk about this when I worked with my clients as well, is that if you’re trying to be someone that you’re not, just because it’s the popular thing or you think it’s going to make you popular amongst people, it’s gonna shine through that it’s not you, and people are going to  figure it out, and it’s going to have the opposite effect. So when people are developing their brand voice or their visuals, or they’ve seen examples and they think, ‘Oh, this person is my competitor, and they’ve done it so beautifully so if I just do something similar, then I will have similar results.’ 

That really backfires most of the time because piggybacking off someone else’s brand personality is just not going to cut it because it’s not you. I think people nowadays are very discerning about these things. We are getting more and more clever as consumers, and the online business world as well. I saw for a lot of years the big experts were, they all looked the same. They sounded the same and they were able to get away with it because they had this one particular way of coming across.

And it was just the way. And now I don’t think people are buying it as much. I think people are more picky about these things. 

M: Yes, yes, and that’s the sameness that I was talking about. That’s the dullness of it. That’s you open someone’s website and you scroll and you read a few sentences and you think ‘it’s just another coach or it’s just another, I don’t know, social media manager’ and because their sentences their paragraphs are similar to what you’ve already seen I don’t know, fifty, sixty times.

P: So now that we’ve said that, and we’ve told people what not to do- so don’t go and copy someone else’s personality because it’s just not you, and it’s going to shine through-What can people do then, to make their personality, their own personalities, their true personalities shine through in their in their copy? What’s the correct way of going about this? 

M: Okay, so the first thing that I’d like to say is not directly an answer to your question, but rather still to how to stand out but I think it’s very important to mention it. Talk about your ideal clients pain points and struggles in relation to the problems that you want to solve or help them with (not necessarily problems) in a way they really think to themselves. ‘Yes, this is so me, like, Wow, this is so me. She really she really got me. She really got me’ That’s connection on an emotional level, and how do you do that? You do that by going a bit deeper than anyone else, like knowing them and writing about what’s happening to them a bit deeper, like how do they think? What do they feel? How does it manifest in their daily lives? What problems with their children they have because of the problem that you’re trying to help them with. What problems with their neighbour? Just, you know, throwing things just for you to get a picture. The same goals about you, share in your sales copy. Share if this is you, and then be strict. Like if this is you, you did this and you did that, and you did this. I mean, if this is you, meaning if I want to work with clients like this and then you explain what kind of clients you want to work with. 

Yes, it does mean that you are going to repel some of the clients, some of them won’t like it, some of them withdraw. Some of them will think ‘Well, she’s really strict, this is putting me off. But guess what? 

P: It’s good. 

M: Yes, that’s good, because those are the people you don’t want to work with. Write what are your beliefs, share that! What are some of your beliefs? You can write that In every sales page,there should be a section about you and in that section don’t make it a boring bio. Of course, you want to mention your awards and your certificates, yes. You know, people need to hear that, but don’t start with that. Just put in your beliefs as well, because people who have similar beliefs-it’s more important to them that you connect on that level of beliefs and values then certificates and awards,that’s more important. So share that as well and quirks, and your favourite topics that you like. I don’t know, some some people like love plants, find a few metaphors about plants that you will refer to explaining problems. Or I mean, of course, instead of plants it can be anything, but something that has to do with you, with what you like. If you’re a mom, for example, I’m telling this because we’re both moms. We can use examples from our own lives and experiences with children in our sales pages and it will. It doesn’t mean that only moms will react, even women or people who are not men, they are all somewhat familiar with children. So what it will do is create a closer human-to-human connection and it will have to stand out because it’s rare to see metaphors like that in the sales copy. 

P: You just made me very happy because that’s just what I’ve done, and what I’m trying to on my own website. Anyone who knows me, or follows me on Instagram will know that I like to spend a lot of time in the kitchen. I love cooking. I love food, such a foodie, and I wanted to bring it in as a part of my personality. So I’ve got like, ‘let’s whip your brand into shape,’ and I’ve got an image of a whip with a chocolate on it. For my portfolio, I’ve put ‘ the proof is in the pudding.’ There’s some yummy, gooey, chocolate pudding batter there. And it’s just those like I was when I was doing it. I was like half of me felt really clever and the other half felt like, ‘Oh, maybe it’s too much maybe people won’t get it.’ So now that you’ve given me permission to do this, I’m all happy. 

M: No, it’s exactly what you should do. It’s exactly what you should do, it’s how you stand out! (that was a bit too loud) but it is really is. 

P: Yeah, and like I say to some clients as well, ‘Well, I like to bake and when you bake, you need to let things take time. You can’t just stir the dough together and whack it in the oven and you’ll have a nice, fluffy loaf of bread. You’ll have a rock! But if you give it time to develop and you leave it to rise, and then you leave it for a while and then you leave it to rise again, and then you cook it. That’s when you’ll get the brilliant result. That’s how I try to use that metaphor in branding because people are so impatient they just want the end result, and they want it now and I’m like, ‘we need to give it time.’ 

M: That’s an excellent metaphor. 

P: I’m going to I’m going to use it even more now that you’ve given me permission to. 

M: I’m glad. I’m glad I want to share another quote,  I think this one is rare, if that’s okay with you. 

P: Of course, yeah. Go for it! 

M: “The mind thinks in pictures, you know, one good illustration is worth 1000 words. But one clear picture built up in the reader’s mind, by your words, is worth 1000 drawings for the reader colours that picture with his own imagination, which is more potent than all the brushes of all the world’s artists”- Robert Collier 

P: Sounds like a very wise man. 

M: Yeah, those pictures that we paint with words are what makes that connection, what makes people connect on an emotional level, which is where sales happen. They happen on an emotional level. 

P: I think that’s the case for all branding. Your brand isn’t just the words that you read or the colours that you see, it’s about reaching deeper into who you want to talk to so they actually feel that connection with you. Then, of course, that has to come through in how you write your copy as well otherwise, you know there’s a part missing. 

M: I agree, couldn’t agree more. 

P: I know we also spoke about how selling isn’t forcing people and how it’s more about serving and helping. Maybe we should talk a little bit about that because I, like so many others, that’s one thing that I struggle with, that mindset wise. It’s like I don’t want to come across as you know pushy. I know that we mentioned that in our pre-recording chat, so I would like to touch on that a bit if you wouldn’t mind.

What are some steps we can take to make sure that we do enough of the selling but not without the sleeze and without the forcing people.

M: I think I think it’s mostly mindset thing, as you mentioned. I think It came from the era of vacuum cleaner salesman who would knock on our doors and just start to sell and offer vacuum cleaners to us. For the first two minutes you don’t even understand what’s going on and when you realise, like now you have to get this person out of your apartment and you don’t know how. 

P: I’m laughing. I’m laughing because, and I’m going to age myself now, I’m laughing because I’m old enough to remember this. When I was a child I actually vividly remember this salesman coming to sell vacuum cleaners: big, hefty, American-style, stand-up vacuum cleaner. I mean, he must have been there for hours, demonstrating on our carpets and I can just imagine my parents and how they must have felt at the time. They bought a vacuum cleaner!

M: Really!

P: It’s still there, they still have it!

M: He did a good job then!

P: He did a good job, but maybe not in the way that you want, because I don’t think anybody in my household ever felt good about having bought that vacuum cleaners.

M: Yes, and they probably bought it just to make him stop and leave their place. So not the way you want to go about your selling. 

P: Definitely, definitely not.

M: Another example. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Turkey. 

P: I haven’t actually, no. 

M: Well, when you go through in Arab countries-I I’ve actually spent seven months in Syria, but their way of selling is more to what you want, not what you don’t want. But in Turkey, they stand in front of their stores and they yell at you to come and visit.

Sometimes they when it’s very crowded, sometimes they will even grab someone’s sleeve to make them come into your shop. I think that when people think about sleazy and slimy, they think that, and they connect in their mind. This is slimy and sleazy, and pushy selling. But what I think it really is and that the mindset shift that they, I think need to need to make or-I don’t like to use the word need- but that I’d like to invite them to make is to first. It’s more a thing of a self belief and self trust. When I say self, I also mean the offer that they’re making. 

So the first question is, do you really believe that your offer can make a difference? Can solve that problem, can help your clients move from point A to point B, and I think most of entrepreneurs, their eyes would change to that, their whole body posture would change and they would yell inside of themselves. ‘Yes, yes, I really believe!’ They would be excited because they really believe, more often than not,  not just believe, but it already happened to their previous clients. They already help people move from one point to another.  

So what selling really is- from that mindset, from that perspective- is offering help, genuine help to your ideal clients. Since that help costs, because all of us need money to pay stuff, then it’s actually help in exchange for help from somebody else. I probably wasn’t clear. So I will simplify this for the sake of making myself clear. Just I’m terrible at live conversations. I think my mind works totally differently when I write.

I don’t know how to explain it, but so different for me when I talk and when I write.

P: You’re all right, I’m having fun with our conversation.

M: Oh, good. I’m glad. Just I guess my mind gets a bit confused. 

You’re offering to do something for someone so they can, for example, make money to go on a family vacation. In return, they help you go on on your family vacation. 

P: That makes sense. 

M: Does that make sense? You’re not doing anything wrong.

I mean, of course, there are all different kinds of selling. There is a sales call, there is on social media etc., that you don’t want to bomb people with your sales messages. But when it comes to your website and your sales page, and your individual post, there is absolutely nothing wrong to say ‘Hey, I’ve got this thing. I really believe it will help, go check it out if you think it will help. If not, then thank you for having a look.’ 

P: I think that thing that you said at the end there that makes the whole difference to whether it’s pushy and aggressive and horrible, nasty selling versus selling with empathy. Because if people say ‘no, I can’t do this or this is not for me,’ you respect their decision rather than trying to say ‘Oh, but if you don’t buy it, bad things will happen to you and you will never reach your goals.’ 

I think the point is not to make them feel guilty for not taking you up on your offer. It’s like you have this offer, and if they don’t want it right now, or if it’s not the right time or if they genuinely can’t, then that’s their decision to make and not yours.

That’s how I approach things anyway. It’s like, ‘OK, so it’s not gonna be for everyone.’ It’s not going to be for everyone at any given time. But if I treat people with respect and say, ‘Yeah, sure, but my door is open for the next time, when you want to come back, I’m here.’ That feels to me a lot lot better than saying ‘Oh, well, fuck you then. If you don’t want to buy my offer, you can, you know…’

M: Yes, of course. 

P: It’s just like the whole the whole sort of attitude towards what happens if people don’t take you up on your offer? 

M: Yes, I’m with you. I’m with you, and even better if they can’t, won’t, or they’re just not ready to buy from you yet. You can always refer them to your free stuff. Like if you write a whole email sequence after webinar and they don’t sign up for your offer, you can say, ‘Hey, thank you for opening my emails if I understand that you’re not ready for whatever reason but if you still have this problem, you can check out this and this and that.’

That way they still stay in your panel or they still pay attention to what you’re working. And maybe in a month to a year, they’ll be ready to.

P: I’ve had people come to me five years later. 

M: Yes. 

P: You know five years later they’ve come back to me, and at that point, they’ve come back to me ready to invest maybe twice what they were able able to invest the first time when they approached me. So it’s like they were ready then, but they weren’t in the beginning.

I think if we can approach sales from that kind of perspective and that it’s our prospective buyers decision whether they want to or not, and we have to respect it. Then I’m like, ‘Yeah, that’s my way of doing things.’ That’s much more aligned with me than than the sort of selling at all costs and getting the sale at all costs because if someone’s bought something, they’ve invested a lot of money and they did it feeling like it wasn’t the right timing for them, chances are that they’re going to feel regret and resentment, and they probably won’t be raving about you to people and doing you any favours in that respect. 

M: That’s true too. If that’s that’s a programme that they would actually need to do work, but they were not ready to do the work then that can be a problem because they won’t succeed. Then there won’t be a good referral and they won’t be, you won’t be successful because they weren’t ready to buy it from you, you know?

P: So I know that’s not directly related to sales copy but I think if you lead up to that point with empathy based copy. If you tell them everything they need to know about your offer to make an informed decision and they feel like they connect with you, and they still feel like it’s not the right timing, then it’s up to them to decide. Then you don’t hold any grudges afterwards. If they don’t, 

M: Yeah, it can be connected to sales copy as well. There is a section that can be pretty powerful, that some copywriters use, and I’m not totally against that section. That message, better yet to say.The headline would go something like this: “What will it cost you if you don’t solve this problem?’

I’m sure you’ve seen this. Then bullet point the list of things that can cost. Now I’m not totally against it. I’m just saying when people write that they need to be very careful not to go over the line because.

P: Yes, I agree. 

M: If we take like overweight, for example, there are costs. If you don’t do anything about you being overweight, there are costs to that. As a copywriter, or as a person who is writing the sales page, you want to list some of these things because it’s important. But you don’t want to get over the board. And you don’t want to make people feel like, I don’t know, like to…

P: To shame or guilt. 

M: To shame or guilt. I always I want to end ‘But if you’re not ready now, that’s okay.’ Not in those words exactly, maybe. But something along along these lines, like ‘if you’re not ready now, it’s okay like you’re not ready.’ 

P: Yeah.

M: That doesn’t mean that you don’t take care about yourself, that you don’t love yourself. It just means that you’re not ready, right. 

P: Yeah, that’s a good way of putting it. I think it’s very relatable to me as well because I’ve just launched a group programme and obviously I’ve had people who weren’t ready to take it just yet. I think what you do towards the end, you can offer them the opportunity to get on the wait list for the next round but you can also be very transparent about the fact that next time I run it, it’s going to cost more. I think that’s in my mind that’s an OK way of doing it because you’re being honest about it. If you’re lying about it, blatantly lying and you’re planning on running it again at the same cost, then it’s not OK. But then they can make a decision because they know that. ‘Okay, well, if I want it at this price, then I need to sign up now. But I’m not ready.’ So they have to weigh up what’s what’s more important, being ready or getting it at the lowest price.

I think the way I approach copyrighting, as well as anything else in branding, is that transparency and honesty and just being being upfront with people and not trying to con people. Yes, it’s a good, good rule to live by. 

M: It’s a good rule to live by intention really counts a lot. Sometimes sentences can be the same, but your example is great, like if you are saying that only to create that urgency, it’s not OK. If you’re saying that because you are a business owner and you plan, if you know that your price will go up, then that’s what’s going to happen. You’re just communicating that, that’s OK.

P: Yeah. But I think we’ve been so accustomed it to being misused, like by these people who say, ‘Oh, buy it now before the price goes up! Hurry, hurry, hurry! Countdown timer! It’s going to go away and never going to come back.’ Then you see that same person a few weeks later and the countdown timer is still running and their offer is still up. And you’re like, ‘Wait a minute!’

That doesn’t make you feel good, Does it? 

M: No, of course not. Or, you know ‘Oh, there’s a discount now, but I know that there’s going to be another one and around New Year or around summer, the peak of summer holiday or around Christmas,’  And you say to yourself, ‘Oh, I’m just going to wait until then.’

P: This has grown into a really great conversation. I know we’ve gone far beyond just the basic basics of copyrighting and sales copyrighting, but I think it’s all the better for it and we could talk for hours. I know but it’s time to round up. 

And so I’d like I’d like to invite you before we round off. If there was just one thing you know, that one single tip that you’re allowed to give our listeners today before we round off. What would that be? 

M: That’s very hard

P:  I know it is, I’m sorry.

M: It’s OK. 

Okay, we haven’t talked about this, but I think that people are totally missing it. It has to do with Ideal client avatar. That is important, not because of demographics and psychographics and you know, that jazz. It’s important because when you have one and when you’ve written a couple of pages about your ideal client avatar, and when you read it before writing your copy, it allows you to step out of your own shoes as a seller, as a business owner, as a service provider and step in your ideal client’s shoes as someone who will read your messages and decide if they want to buy your offer or not.

P: That’s a really good piece of advice, so much easier to write when you’ve got someone in mind that you’re writing to rather than just like making it up as you go along 

M: Yes, because, you know, it’s really it’s a mental exercise. My tip is to do it as a mental exercise, as a mindset exercise. Take time to read it, and not just having in mind, like literally- not literally- I want to say literally become that person. I mean, that’s not possible, but like for a minute there, pretend that you’re that person.

You can do that before you start writing your sales copy, and you can do that once you’re finished again. Just change your perspective and then read it from that angle, imagining that you are the person who is deciding whether to buy your offer or not. So many things will become clear, so many words. You will literally be able to add a lot of things based on just that one. 

P: Thank you, that’s been brilliant. So if anyone’s listen to our conversation and they’re thinking I want to learn more from Maya.

Where can they go and find you and connect with you? Since we’ve been talking about connection? 

M: Yes, yes, of course. Okay, well, first, my website and I’m on LinkedIn, I  post on LinkedIn and on Facebook, my Facebook profile. That’s where I share my content and connect people. And of course, they can always reach out and have a chat, like no strings attached, no selling. No, I just generally like to get to know people and hear their stories and chat.

P: Sounds good. I’ll make sure that I pop all of those links in the show notes so people can get in touch with you. Thank you so much, once again for being my guest today. It’s been a pleasure chatting with you.

M: Thank you to and I know it’s formal but the pleasure is all mine. 

PS! I have decided I want to connect with more awesome people in 2022. If you’d like to grab a virtual cuppa with me, find a time here.

Until next time,

Petchy xx

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